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Talk:Erik Storn (New Earth)
Is Erik(a) transgender or not? I put Erik(a) Storn in the Transgender Characters category, but this has been undone, saying "Erik isn't transgender. It's just the manifestation of his powers". Most of the transgender characters in comics are by the manifestation of their powers -- like Andrea Martinez (New Earth), Aruna Shende (New Earth), Echo (New Earth), William Woolcott (Earth-ABC)/Promethea (Earth-ABC), and Marvel's Loki, Mystique, Courier and several others. So, just because the character is not biologically transgender, but because of his/her powers, can not s/he be in that category?--FabioEscorpiao (talk) 18:50, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :I thought someone else would weigh in here but I guess not. Erik's case is kind of a gray area. I can see adding him. The idea of the category was originally for traditional, real-world representations of transgender characters. And you're right, there aren't many of those characters. What we didn't want was characters who change genders through magic or superpowers. Some of these characters don't really represent transgender characters in any realistic manner. That's the problem with categories on the site (sexuality categories suffer the same problems). It's hard to categorize gender and sexuality in real life because it's more of a spectrum than separation into 2 or 3 categories. It's even harder to break it down when you add in magic or shapeshifters of other things that don't exist in real life. Kyletheobald (talk) 22:34, April 10, 2017 (UTC) :: I'll throw myself into the match because this is obviously something we should have a discussion about. What Kyle said is absolutely true. But I agree with your decision, Fabio. From what I gather from this page, Erik's not really sticking to being male or female, his gender is in flux. Even though it might not be a traditional or realistic interpretation of a transgender person, I think putting him / her in that category works as a sort of catch all. :: Or, because I'm down to problem solve, is it possible to put him in both categories? Male and Female? Gender1, Gender2? I've never tried. Maybe that's an option. --- Haroldrocks talk 01:53, April 11, 2017 (UTC) ::: Haroldrocks, that's another problem -- put both male and female categories at the same time to determine who is a transgender person, because transgender is when the person goes from one gender to another, and does not have both at the same time. To this we give the name "intersex" (formerly "hermaphrodite"), as it is the case of Ystin (Prime Earth) (whom I also put as a transgender for not having the intersex category here in the page). I am in favor of having a debate about it and of broadening the spectrum of sexuality in the categories here, as they did in the Marvel Wikia (though I think they overdid it a bit) https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Characters_by_Gender https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Gender/Sexual_Minorities_Characters --FabioEscorpiao (talk) 16:58, April 11, 2017 (UTC) ::::2-ish¢ ::::Transgender within the real world context covers two things. In a very broad sense it is an umbrella term covering gender identities that do not fit a strong binary definition of gender. Within that umbrella it tends to cover those who identify as or express themselves as a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth. In both cases this is something intrinsic to the person. It is who the person is and how they perceive themselves. While the term does encompass transitioning, that can be anywhere from clothing choice to medical intervention. Those in the latter group are also sometimes referred to as "transsexual". ::::Within fiction, the term has also been used as a genre where, generally, a character is transformed from one gender to another. Regardless of their consent or personal perception of themselves. ::::Mixing the factual and fictional in this regard is a very bad move to make. ::::As for gender and gender identity, there is some good arguments to adding to the categories. The question becomes are we doing this from a factual context or not. For me the starting point for gender would be along the lines of: ::::* Male - Covers both cis and trans men and within the infobox. ::::* Female - Covers both cis and trans women and within the infobox. ::::* Intersex or Hermaphrodite - Physically posses both sets of genitalia. Possibly within the infobox. ::::* Transgender - Covering those who fall into the default perception of the term - they identify as the gender opposite their birth gender. It's a bit of a give, but it would otherwise cover all the non-binary gender identities. This can also include those forcibly changed physically but not psychologically. ::::And so on. The caveat being there has be something within the stores that clearly show how the character self identifies. And even more so in the cases of forced changes. ::::Storn for example. IIRC once the side effect hit they wound with an intermittent disconnect between their physical gender and their gender identity. I don't remember if that was ever really expounded upon or resolved though before the character died. Within the category framework above, they would not have a gender within the infobox, would be categorized as transgender, and have a significant note or three explaining the situation for the character. ::::- Byfield (talk) 22:42, April 11, 2017 (UTC) :::::Thanks for your explanations, Byfield. In fact, we are talking about fictional characters, and using real-life parameters to categorize fictional characters from superhero stories does not make much sense. Anyway, if there is a gender change, then the character is transgender.--FabioEscorpiao (talk) 16:56, April 12, 2017 (UTC) ::::::"In fact, we are talking about fictional characters, and using real-life parameters to categorize fictional characters from superhero stories does not make much sense." ::::::Fabio, that is, at the least, disingenuous. Especially since a lot of the categories used with the physical description of characters are not only based on real world context and parameters, but match them. ::::::Transgender is a parameter that is so fuzzy in the understanding of the general public that devaluing the term to cover characters that have had a gender-swap or gender-flip at the whim of a writer is not helpful. ::::::Yes, there are a lot of examples of the swap/flip in comics thanks to fantasy and sci-fi elements. And most of those get a status quo reset or are shapeshifters for whom gender in human terms is a non-issue. But using that, the fantastical, to add to the fuzziness already inherent with the term transgender is not a good thing. It is also not a sound way to structure a category. ::::::Starting with the factual meaning of the term is for the best. It gives that grounding for the category and allows for distinctions to be made. ::::::- Byfield (talk) 00:19, April 13, 2017 (UTC) :::::::To Byfield's point, sticking to the real world definition is best. Yes, we are going to run into comic and sci-fi situations that aren't realistic; we may have to make some decisions on a case by case basis. The fact is, the DC Database has become a resource many people come to; we don't want this category to attract negative attention when our intent is to be as informative, respectful, and as complete as possible. Kyletheobald (talk) 04:34, April 13, 2017 (UTC)